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Frandierty
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re: "In order to make a more efficient Raid Team..."

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Hamweaver wrote:
I think most people here understand that comps are important and can make or break some attempts, however all we can do is work with what we have. If we had people sitting on the bench waiting to fill a spot because "2 frost DK's won't cut it" then the situation would be different. That just isn't the case.


For this content this really is not the case. In many content before this you could just throw say 4 melee at the boss and it would be ok. When Blizz made firelands they truly had 25s in mind. This time though that made a drastic difference in 10s were you don't get away with bad comps. At the same time a correct comp is not something like you can only have such and such spec. It is: 1 aoe tank, 1 single target tank, 1 tank healer, 1 aoe healer, 1 tank/part aoe (holy priest are best but other classes can do it.), 2 melee, 3 range. Now there are certain classes that just happen to not mix well in 2s but thats rare. As it happens though we have been running that lately. Having 2 resto druids no matter how skilled puts a lot of pressure on the raid. In this current gear we don't have room for that. On top of that we are overflowing with melee which means its heavier healing. Your right in saying there is a lot we can get away with in raid comps but there is rare comps that happen to not mix well and we are using it. Firelands being what it is, is not being forgiving about it either.



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At no point has anyone said anything from inspections will be required. What I've seen from most of the posts is mostly against the notion that gear improvements will translate into progression. When I inspect someone, it will in fact be to provide suggestions, not deadlines and penalties. The suggestions however, should at least be taken into consideration. If upgrading a piece of gear will increase DPS (note: I'm only going to be doing DPS inspections. That's all they taught me in the inner city) then there is no reason people shouldn't make an effort to get it. Ranting and raving over personal responsibility during the raid has no merit if people won't carry that responsibility outside the raid as well.


Fair enough, I miss understood what you meant by inspections. I apologize for that.

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No one can be forced to do anything over the internet, let alone in a video game. What can be expected though is that if people are willing to sign up for 3 hours to make progress, then when the Firelands raid does not happen, progress can be made in other fields. Progress isn't all loot distribution and pictures for the website.


This point came up because a raid was canceled so I decided to do arenas. In which "certain" people weren't happy about since I didn't wanna do ZA/ZG. I am sorry but if a raid is CANCELED then its fair game on what I plan to do with my night. Now if they said "hey we can't do firelands, lets do BWD" all for it because we are raiding. I pay my 15 a month like everyone else, if I sign up to raid thats what I plan to do not ZA/ZG.


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This is probably the most troubling thing I read. If this raid team does in fact decide to be defined as "hardcore" I will be the first to step out. I have done hardcore progression raiding before and I have no intention to return to that arena. While I do agree that progress should come first, I refuse to raid without a connection to my team.


I believe what he is was stating is that. Everyone is trying to act all hard core about fixing our raid. We need to decide is this a hardcore guild or a casual progressed guild? If people are aiming to make this a truly hardcore guild then this is far from how its done, very very far. Don't get me wrong I will follow TS either way but as far as I know we are aiming to make this casual progressed. In which we are on the right track for but you can't be so demanding of people. People don't want to come home from a hard day at work to be yelled at logging in. If you want something done you ask not tell. Everyone wants to take this seriously, as they should but min-maxing is not how you do it. You guys are focusing on the smallest details when there is a giant sign flash problem here.

Look I know I don't come off in the nicest way about a lot of what I am saying. I have ran a hardcore guild and a casual one in my past. I am not claiming to know everything, far from it. I just know what my personal experiences are and try to provide the best info I can from them. Some times it comes out a lot more mean then I intend because I get frustrated.

Also I do apologize for using you in so many quote for this post, you just provided excellent points to talk about.
Thespeus
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I think everyone's making some great points, and it's obvious that we're all passionate about what we want out of this game, myself included. If anything, I hope this has gotten us all to hash out our own goals and see how they mesh with everyone else's.

"Hardcore" vs. "Casual"

    First and foremost, I will *never* yell at people during a raid and I will not tolerate it from anyone else. I may speak stearnly (it's not all bubblegum and sunshine) when it comes to correcting mistakes that we are making, but I'm not the yelling type, as most of you know.

    This "hardcore vs casual" debate always gets into ugly territory because each term is different for each person. One person may equate "hardcore" with "OMG WTF U SUCK! NUK DA BOSS HARDZ!" while another may simply think it means giving your best while you're in there and making the most of your time. Someone may take "casual" to mean "lazy" or "easy", while another compares it to the amount of overall time spent working towards the goal.

    Take the latter version of each example, and this is how I feel I like to raid, and how I'd like to see us raid. I've seen a lot of people throw around the term "casually hardcore", and if we're going to use this vernacular, then this is as close as I can get to defining my goals. We raid 2 nights a week for 3 hours a night. By comparison, that's a really light schedule. Thus, it behooves us to absolutely make the most of the time we spend both in and out of raid. Both of those incorporate most of the points that we've been making through this post.

    To put it plainly (and to steal from another raid leader I know), we'll be among the nicest raid teams to progress through content. I'm not going to define us by one word or another. All we can do is simply create the raid environment that we'd like to raid in.


The "Other" Things

    Raid Comp - Yes, we're aware of this. However, I don't think any of us want to bloat the roster simply to get the "optimal" comp for each fight, though I know that's not what's being suggested. With Brian (Omnislashe) onboard, we now have a better chance to get our comp a little bit more in line. Yes, two druid healing hurts us. Yes, being melee-heavy has its pitfalls (Jeff is coming back soon, though). However, we're going to work with what we have and adjust as we can as a group. This may mean toying with specs a bit, but I know everyone here is up to the challenge.

    Outside of Raids - Put as simply as possible, I ask (thanks Joseph) everyone to look at your own gear, your own playstyle, and your own resources to see what you can do to improve as a player. I'll never force people to do anything, but I would hope that if you want success, you'll utilize outside resources for help in achieving it. As we all know, stat weights change, talents lose/gain strength, gearing strats get adjusted. There are a lot of awesome resources out there. Just ask if you need any guidance. Also, since we're getting in the habit, let's start using the forums for post-raid discussion, too.


What I'd like to see is Ragnaros die and dabbling in hardmodes before the content gets severely nerfed. Like Aaron said, we're not aiming for server first, nor do we want to, but progression is the goal while connected as a cohesive team. We were behind in t11, and I really don't want to be behind in this tier as well. It's this team that I want to progress with. You guys are of the most important aspects for me, and I hope the feeling is mutual.
Jimmyofdoom



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re: "In order to make a more efficient Raid Team..."

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ok i think people got off track with what my point was cause of the word "hardcore". the point i am trying to make is we as a guild and a raid team need to figure out what we want to be. i know no one want's to go "hardcore" but the direction we are going isnt anywhere close to even progression raiding.... when you have to pug 2 to 3 people a night that is far from progression. i was only using hardcore as an example. all im tring to say is we need to to set a goal and then exicute that goal.

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Thespeus
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Jimmyofdoom wrote:
ok i think people got off track with what my point was cause of the word "hardcore". the point i am trying to make is we as a guild and a raid team need to figure out what we want to be. i know no one want's to go "hardcore" but the direction we are going isnt anywhere close to even progression raiding.... when you have to pug 2 to 3 people a night that is far from progression. i was only using hardcore as an example. all im tring to say is we need to to set a goal and then exicute that goal.


Haha point taken, Jimmy. Just wanted to clear up misconceptions of "hardcore" all the same. We'll talk tonight near the end of raid as a group and make sure we know what's going on.


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Judging by the turn of the discussion I think we are quite ready for tonights meeting!

We're in an interesting situation because, unlike other guilds, we're more on the democratic side, without a GM and/or a handful of officers deciding everything for us.

We can't just decide if we're going to be "casual", "hardcore" or "hardcore progressed" because the words define tendancies rather than something concrete. What we can do, though, is decide upon certain policies we'd like to see and vote on them.

For example, some think scheduled raid times should be sacred guild time, others think that if a raid is cancelled, it's cancelled. So someone (and I can volunteer for it, I love doing that kind of thing) can draft up a policy and we'll vote on it.
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