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Should we add an "Off-Spec KSK" list?
Yes, I think the idea seems pretty solid.
66%
 66%  [ 6 ]
Umm... I think we need to hash it out a little more first.
22%
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No, the system is fine as it is.
11%
 11%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 9

Thespeus
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re: SUGGESTION: Off-spec KSK list?

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I was thinking about our loot situation this morning. With all of the relatively easy clears of Firelands we've been doing, maybe we should discuss possibly adding an off-spec loot list to our KSK. We've got some people that could benefit from gearing up some off-specs:

    - Tanking - Shangina, Dankel, Kevorkian, Rykga?
    - Healing - ?? Seems like we're full here. No one has expressed interest.
    - DPSing - Thespeus, Maulin, Dralo, Kilokai?


This list is just a brainstorm of various roles that have been filled in the past. What we ultimately want to do is run with as small of a roster as possible so we're not sitting people on any given night.

The vision: If a tanking trinket drops, we start with the main loot list. James and D will essentially duke it out for it, if either of them needs it. If neither needs it, then it goes to the off-spec list for Rey, Joseph, Aaron and Jenn to battle it out. This way, if Aaron is really hoping for that *plate item* to drop, he doesn't have to lose his spot to pick up a piece of tank gear that's not needed by D or James.

As for people like James, Joseph, and myself, we'd be working on the honor system. My elemental gear is still +int Mail gear. Feral gear is pretty much the same. If I plan to use a piece for my resto set, I'll use main-spec. If it's only going to be elemental gear, I'll use off-spec. I trust everyone that's in this situation to be honest about what they're using it for. If it's a hybrid piece (shared between two specs, such as a neckpiece, ring, or otherwise), it should be decided by the main-spec list.

What does everyone think? Suggestions are definitely welcome. Let's look at this from all sides.


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Shangina
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i think this is a great idea and i think it would benefit the guild runs.
Rykga
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I've lost count of how many times I've let an item I'd use be disenchanted because it wasn't worth loosing my loot spot. I'm all for it.
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great idea about the off spec deal all tho i dont go kitty much
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This does go against the spirit of what Suicide Kings is intended for. Nothing makes you hold your spot. If you want one specific peace of gear, that's the penalty. You're almost guaranteed to get it (unless someone above you is pulling the same thing).

With an OS KSK list, people can just let MS gear that no one else is going to take (already have it, publicly said they're waiting for something, etc., etc.) just fall through the cracks and take it on the OS list and save their higher spot.

If there is sufficient displeasure with SK, perhaps DKP should be looked into. It allows spot hording (by stockpiling points), and doesn't has the backdoor for OS loot in that you can spend without falling below the loot sponges.


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Thespeus
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I definitely understand your point, Aaron. However, we've seen off-spec pieces get DE'd that can potentially be used. I'd like to think that our team is honest enough (otherwise we wouldn't have it) to make the right choice. Like I said, something that may need to be hashed out a little more, but the intent is that anything that could be used for main-spec (side-grades, minor upgrades, alternate options, etc) would be used on the Main Spec list. Hybrid pieces (used for both specs) would also go to main-spec rolls. However, if an item would clearly only be used for an off-spec (i.e., tanking gear for you, rey or jenn), I'm not sure I see the point anymore in letting that go to waste simply because it's a piece that would be seldomly used.

Again, it's our system, and we've always been open to discussion to see what works best for us. I think totally changing the loot system would do more harm than good. Any loot system is simply a basis that guilds can build off of.

Discuss further =)


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I'm all for the OS KSK List. At pivotal points in our raiding, Team Sport, in it's infinite wisdom, calls upon me to lay down my hands of healing, and demonstrate the dismal debacle that I call DPS. I would like to be able to give my best, wearing the best, and an OS KSK list will allow that. I'm a believer that no FL gear should be DE'd. If any of us that are raiding have no need for the piece, be benevolent and give it to a guildie (i.e. Marie, Ann), for they are also called upon to serve when the need arises.

Perhaps Aaron's alternative loot program may better suit our needs.
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I've always preferred the old fashioned MS/OSpec roll system myself - Loot Council and DKP are way too much work, SK isn't as fair as it appears (when I'm at the top of the list, I pass on everything, when I'm at the bottom I bid on everything and get tons of loot), so roll is nice because it's low maintenance and it forces people who want the same piece of loot to talk to each other.

BUT, I think SK has worked out well for us so far. I think keeping separate and strict (to avoid people using the OS list for MS) lists for MS and OS would keep usable gear from getting DEed.

It would also help the raid in that people on top of the list who don't need gear won't keep people who do need gear from getting it. For example, a kick ass dps weapon drops. I don't need any more MS gear and I'm on top of the list, so I bid on it. Someone lower down on the list DOES need it for MS. I would still win, even though it doesn't benefit the raid. (I would hope that most of us wouldn't pull a stunt like that, but I have seen it happen.) An offspec list would prevent that from happening.
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I personally never liked MS/OS roll loot systems. No punishment for just rolling on everything you can use. Loot council has always been out of the question to me. Too subjective.

On the OS KSK list: I still believe that if we're going to alter what we have been using anyways, why not just move to another loot system that has everything that people seem to want, rather than altering our current one to go against itself.

I understand that seeing things get DE'd when they are clear upgrade for you (or your OS) is painful. That's the punishment of setting your eyes on one item and waiting for just that. SK works wonderfully if everyone bids on every single item that's an upgrade. Sometimes you're stuck at the top because no gear drops. That's a reality with all loot systems.

However, if seeing upgrades go by the wayside is a big enough bother (even OS upgrades), I'd suggest again going with a Zero sum DKP. I can do further in depth on the system if need be, but adding any other list to SK lists completely undermines the whole spirit of the original list.

Not to say that people in TS would abuse an OS KSK list, but opening that door is more than is necessary I think. (Technically, people sitting atop the totem pole waiting for one item shows a distrust of people to talk to each other about who its a bigger upgrade for anyways).


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Thespeus
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Let's start out by saying that I feel confident that everyone on this team trusts each other. Like Jenn said, it doesn't seem as though anyone would abuse any loot system that we have. Aaron confirmed the same in his last post. No one seems to think that any of us would take advantage of a loot system, which we all need to keep in mind while we hash this out.

Other Loot Systems

I don't think it would be wise at all to try to completely migrate to a different system. I agree that Loot Council is too subjective. I've never liked the concept. I'm not a fan of any kind of DKP system (too much accounting). We've also had this system through 3 tiers now, and it's served us well. As many in the MMO blogosphere agree, there is no "one size fits all" loot system. The common belief is to take one of them and craft it how it best suits us.

Main Spec

I honestly am not picking on you, Aaron, but so far, you're the only voice of dissent. I think there's a misunderstanding when I read this:

Hamweaver wrote:
I understand that seeing things get DE'd when they are clear upgrade for you (or your OS) is painful. That's the punishment of setting your eyes on one item and waiting for just that.


I think the misunderstanding comes from the fact that we're not suggesting that the entire point of SK be removed. Everyone's in agreement that for each player, it's a system of priority. I have to prioritize if upgrade A is worth losing my spot while waiting for upgrade B. It just seems that lately, especially since we're basically on farm content (except for hardmodes), this is the perfect time to gear up off-specs. This leaves us open to less PuG'ing for Dragon Soul.

For main-spec bidders, they'll still have to decide if a side-grade or minor upgrade is worth bidding on while they may be waiting for that tier piece to drop. It still maintains that "punishment". However, if there's an agility neckpiece that drops (that no one needs), it seems almost silly for me to sacrifice my main-spec spot for an Enhancement piece that I might possibly use 2 or 3 times in the rest of this expansion. The same can be said about tanking gear for Jenn, Rey, or you.

The way I see it, the way the current system is implemented, it forces players to only focus on their main-spec until they've gathered everything they need (unless they happen to sit at the bottom, which is not guaranteed to always happen). Once their main-spec is geared, only then can they turn their attention to off-spec gear. Looking at it this way, one list only lengthens the gearing process for our guild. Yes, the SK system is designed to be "punishing" if you want to wait for something or you take a minor upgrade and a bigger piece drops immediately after. However, I think we can afford as a guild to tweak the punishment to how we see fit. We still want people to prioritize their main-spec upgrades, but it seems too harsh of a punishment to me to suicide over an off-spec that could seldomly (if at all) be used. We could hugely benefit from this by having more of our friends' offspec's geared up sooner (in the case of Joseph's tank gear, Hector's Ret gear, Travis's shadow gear, etc.). Especially when Dragon Soul starts, if we have a piece of gear drop in the early going that no one needs for main-spec, but off-spec would benefit, why not?


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Thespeus
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Another option is just to make off-spec open roll.


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I talked to Aaron about this and I actually am more siding with not having an OS list. He made some great points into why this is kind of just a free roll when it comes to OS and does not punish you at all on the main list for taking an item. There have been instances within our raid where people kept a top spot to get a prime piece of gear while passing on clear BiS or upgrade items(i.e. the Kitty Staff and the 2-Hand off Rag). This hurts the whole spirit of a "Team" IMO and it is also kind of a reason for the OS KSK in my eyes. I dk how else to explain my thoughts right now, .
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Okay... my comments will be limited to what I have time to type in the hour and a half before raid. (which means not much but at least its something)

Thespeus wrote:
Let's start out by saying that I feel confident that everyone on this team trusts each other. Like Jenn said, it doesn't seem as though anyone would abuse any loot system that we have. Aaron confirmed the same in his last post. No one seems to think that any of us would take advantage of a loot system, which we all need to keep in mind while we hash this out.


This is probably not the best way for me to go about introducing some "food for thought" points but its definitely D way to minimize typing & cut right to the core....

The statement:
"No one seems to think that any of us would take advantage of a loot system..."
IS NOT TRUE
and even IF IT WAS TRUE
then it would be a mistake for anyone in Team Sport to think that our loot systems won't be abused.

Before anyone can grumble anything about that last bit sounding like its just me not trusting people as much as I should, let me show why in this case the OPPOSITE is true....
YOU CAN COUNT ON ME TO ABUSE WHATEVER LOOT SYSTEM WE USE AS MUCH AS THAT SYSTEM WILL ALLOW ME TO!

Okay, I hopefully have the whole Team realizing they're gonna have to actually keep watch over the system (keeping eyes on D instead won't help... I promise!) no matter what system we decide on.
Now let me back up...

fuck it's raid time.....


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if we are going to ultimately decide to switch loot systems, i think it should be done right when the next patch comes out. not right now.
I've had problems with stuff dropping that i needed (spirit staff, trinkets, etc) when i was the top spot and i had my eye set on something. does it suck ass that that particular gear (the staff and the trinket on two occasions) got sharded? fuck yeah. but i knew that was part of the system when we implemented it. Nobody could touch me on my bid for the helm i just got though. and i like that. If there is something you want, its like real life, save up for it. if you want to bid on something, weigh out the consequences of what you will get versus what you will potentially miss out on. some would say "its easy for you to say that because you only heal"....well, like i said, i have skipped bids due to my position and i know how it feels but i like that if you really want something, you can get it in this system.
yes i am a druid and use only leather spell caster shit but share a lot of weapons, trinkets, and other stuff with other casters and i feel it is already too much to have to roll against them. i like being able to save my bid so i can crush them if i must. hahahaha
my vote is to hash it out more.
my real vote is that we should have looked at this system earlier if it is a problem. its not to me, overall. but like i said, i only really do one spec.
pwning spec.


i ask that all of you refer to the "STATE OF THE RAID" post...i asked for a change in the loot system that i thought would actually help with that problem too but nobody seemed to read that or care about that idea at the time or at least post a response except dave. right now, accountability is less an issue because we have enough so we don't worry about it but we will when only 6 or 7 start showing up again....IF WE CHANGE OUR LOOT SYSTEM CHANGE THAT ASPECT TOO TO REFLECT ACCOUNTABILITY A BIT MAYBE. something to look into. only in caps so ppl at least read that.... Happy
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re: SUGGESTION: Off-spec KSK list?

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I like the idea of rolling for OS gear. (And otherwise keeping the loot system as it is)

Gear that can benefit the raid should never be DEed. If someone, out of the kindness of their heart, has to go offspec during raids to avoid us bringing in a pug, they need to collect gear for that.

Why should they be penalized on their main spec loot for gearing up offspecs to help the raid?

[EDIT] Gear shouldn't be looked at as a reward, or a selfish thing. Gear is meant to benefit the raid, to make killing bosses easier. Gear rewards the raid, not the individual.
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