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Should we add an "Off-Spec KSK" list?
Yes, I think the idea seems pretty solid.
66%
 66%  [ 6 ]
Umm... I think we need to hash it out a little more first.
22%
 22%  [ 2 ]
No, the system is fine as it is.
11%
 11%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 9

Discotheque!
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re: SUGGESTION: Off-spec KSK list?

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it makes sense, jenn. and i do not disagree that you should be able to bid on your off spec stuff. if you want something, no matter what spec, you have the opportunity to save up to get it. nobody is telling you that you cannot bid on stuff or that it needs to be sharded. if you want it, bid on it. period. i CHOSE not to bid on the stuff that were upgrades because I WANTED THAT DAMN TIER HELM FIRST. i could have easily bid on that stuff or stuff for, say, feral, but i would have dropped to the bottom of the list. you can bid on all this stuff. nobody is telling you that you cannot.
when you dual spec, you still can roll on the gear. if its sharded, its cuz you didn't roll on THAT PIECE even though you wanted it. the only thing that can stop you from getting it is someone in a higher position rolling for it.
i'm thinking more and more that we should leave it as is.
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I'm actually thinking that more and more it benefits the Team as a whole to let off-spec work on a separate system. True, it'll only really benefit people that actually use their offspec for raiding. However, when we look back at the past 3 tiers, we've already been doing it. I know that there have been pieces of off-spec gear that have been handed out that were supposed to be sharded. Sharded gear that could potentially help us when we're in a pinch is simply a waste.

Perfect example: We're a little tight on tanks. Dralo and James both do an awesome job when they're online, but not everyone can be online all the time. Hence, we have some people gearing up their tank sets (Aaron and Rey). Once 4.3 starts, they're pretty much going to be using their spot on the list for their main-spec, and rightfully so. However, if Dralo has a certain piece already, it should be considered by Aaron and Rey. However, why should they lose their main-spec spot for a piece of loot that they may potentially never use? And if they use it, it's only because we've asked them to switch for the betterment of the raid.

Hence, here's what I'm proposing:

    Main-spec pieces: No change to the current system. If you want a piece, you have to suicide yourself for it, regardless of how big an upgrade it is.

    Hybrid pieces (can be used for either): No change to the current system. If you plan to use a piece for both specs, it stays a main-spec roll.

    Off-spec pieces: Open roll for those that use their off-spec in raids first. If you only play one spec and are never asked to switch, this level does not apply to you. If those raid off-specs don't need it, then it goes to off-spec roll to anyone else that may want it.


Rationale: Main-spec should still be a choice. It should still be a decision if you want the piece or not, or let it fall to someone else (or DE). Off-spec, though, shouldn't be a penalty if you could potentially use it for a raiding environment. If for whatever reason in 4.3 we need someone to switch to an offspec, but it's not as geared because we let some gear go to DE, that hurts our progression. We either take the undergeared off-spec, or we have to sit that person and grab a PuG, which I know we're all not the biggest fans of. If Hector is constantly switching when we ask him to go DPS, but we're sharding all of the extra plate DPS gear, then it's our own fault when we don't do as well.

I'm not saying that SK doesn't work. It works great, but the flaw is that there is usable off-spec gear that we're wasting because I think we're being a little too strict. I want this team to be as awesome as possible. Pigeon-holing our progression chances by constantly sharding off-spec gear hamstrings that effort for us to be awesome. I want us to be ready for whatever the night has in store for us.


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00Dralo
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Discotheque! wrote:
if we are going to ultimately decide to switch loot systems, i think it should be done right when the next patch comes out. not right now.
I've had problems with stuff dropping that i needed (tier tokens, non-set tanking plate, etc) when i was the top spot and i had my eye set on something. does it suck ass that that particular gear (two times tier tokens went to others and random tank plate on three occasions) got sharded? fuck yeah. but i knew that was part of the system when we implemented it. Nobody could touch me on my bid for the 2hander mace i just got though. and i like that. If there is something you want, its like real life, save up for it. if you want to bid on something, weigh out the consequences of what you will get versus what you will potentially miss out on. some would say "its easy for you to say that because you only tank"....well, like i said, i have skipped bids due to my position and i know how it feels but i like that if you really want something, you can get it in this system.
yes i am a paladin and use only plate shit but share a lot of weapons, trinkets, and other stuff with other players and i feel it is already too much to have to roll against them. i like being able to save my bid so i can crush them if i must. hahahaha
my vote is to hash it out more.
my real vote is that we should have looked at this system earlier if it is a problem. its not to me, overall. but like i said, i only really do one spec.
pwning spec.



The parts of the quote above that are in BLUE are changes that I made to Scotty's original quote.

The part of the quote above that is in RED is exactly the type of statement I was gonna type out to prove that I will "abuse the system" before I ran outta time.

The part of the quote above that is now UNDERLINED is what Scotty typed that I would type again if it didn't take me so damn long.

The parts of the quote above that are now BOLD and/or BIGGER I believe that
SCOTTY SHOULD HAVE TYPED THAT SHIT BOLDER AND BIGGER!
Discotheque! wrote:
only in caps so ppl at least read that.... Happy


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Thespeus
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re: SUGGESTION: Off-spec KSK list?

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I respect that some people feel that it should've been hashed out before. However, we didn't necessarily take into account these off-specs before. Remember, when we implemented KSK, we had about 6 Team Sport people and constantly had to fill in the gaps. Off-spec wasn't really an issue back then. Seemingly, it is now. Things change, and we have to roll with it.

As for watching some main-spec pieces fall to other people while you wait for a tier piece, that's what saving up is all about. That's how it is designed to work. If tier tokens are still going to other people's main-spec, then we're still benefiting as a raid.

As for the 2-handed mace issue, that's something that I feel we've fallen away from and lost sight of. We used to have main-spec bids and off-spec bids. If the 2-handed mace went to someone that was never going to use it in a raid (and thus wasn't used by someone in their main-spec that wanted it), that's an exploitation of the system that we need to fix. Hence, why I put the different categories above.

If you don't like the system proposed, then we're open to suggestions, but constantly sharding off-spec gear makes us less flexible as a raid. Let's fix it.


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Haven't had access to a computer for a couple days. Response when I get home


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Hamweaver wrote:
Haven't had access to a computer for a couple days. Response when I get home


Dude, that Sam Jackson pick makes me think that every post of yours is typed in pure hatred and rage! LoL


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re: SUGGESTION: Off-spec KSK list?

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I believe I can propose a solution that addresses most everyone's complaints.
(and I think that I may even have enough time to type it out before our next raid!)


First, let me back up a bit...
Originally, way back in our early KZ raiding days, we all kinda realized that we were gonna need TWO different loot systems.

ONE PRIMARY SYSTEM for when it was only Team Sport members in the raid.
That first system was so easy for us to pick.
Every person in Team Sport had been using that same system since long before there even was a Team Sport. So naturally it was everyone's first choice as to how Team Sport should do loot. We never even considered that we could choose any other way. Never had any discussions as to what "loot rules" we needed to implement in advance for the primary system to always be dependable, we just always used it, and it always worked.
Based what we need in our PRIMARY SYSTEM.....
We all knew back then that it wouldn't and will never be PERFECT, but we decided then and I still believe that it is and will always be THE BEST SYSTEM POSSIBLE.

So to figure out who got what loot we unanimously decided to use...
    COMMON SENSE
(We never even voted on it.)

ONE SECONDARY SYSTEM for when it wasn't only Team Sport members in the raid.
That second system was not so easy for us to pick.
Every person in Team Sport had at some point been stuck using some lesser system or another, especially since tons of piss-pore, broken-ass systems of loot distribution have been around long before there ever was a Team Sport. We all recognized (and often painfully remembered) that having success with "Common Sense" looting required that not only we have Common Sense but the rest of the damn raid had to have it, too. Our primary system wasn't gonna work the instant we gotta grab a pug. Even if we all considered trusting (and hoping) that the stranger in our raid had common sense (and would use it), we couldn't in any fairness ask a stranger to fill our raid, then expect them to have faith in us when we say that we use "Common Sense" to distribute loot, so they should just blindly trust that every one of us is gonna act fairly towards them, if and when a piece of loot drops that they are interested in. They would drop group right there if we tried that. (And they would be right to!)
In all the discussions as to what "loot rules" we should implement in advance for our secondary system, we have all seem to always agree that the system has to be as fair to any non-Team Sport in our raid as possible. (Anyone that accepted our invite was helping us to be ABLE to raid. NOBODY in Team Sport would be okay with just screwing someone over that was helping us.) Even if the only way to be sure we were fair to outsiders meant that it sucked for someone in Team Sport. We all can remember back to the days when a pug in a Team Sport raid meant that that pug was probably about to get pretty much geared out. And it also meant that somebody in Team Sport was probably gonna get stuck having to miss out on gear for yet another week. That's why every person that every pugged with us had nothing but the BEST to say about Team Sport. And its also why Team Sport got to where we literally cringed at the thought of forever raiding where we would always have to pug to do it.
Based what we chose to include in our SECONDARY SYSTEM.....
We all knew back then that it wouldn't and will never be PERFECT (in any regard), but we decided then and I still believe that it is and will always be OUR BEST SYSTEM CHOICE POSSIBLE.

So to figure out who got what loot we grudgingly decided we had no choice but use...
    SOMETHING THAT ALWAYS SCREWS OVER TEAM SPORT
(Sooner or later. Somebody. Somehow. SCREWED. No matter what system we voted to try.)



So now here is what I propose as a solution....

We should continue to use those same two systems.
However, if everyone in the raid has the words <Team Sport> under their character name
then we need to be using the PRIMARY SYSTEM.

(Even if they aren't yet a "member" of Team Sport.)



We spent so long having to pug to be able to raid (and that sticking us into some form of the 2nd system for so long) that I think we all just kinda forgot how HUGE an advantage we had (even from just those few and far between times) when we were able to just use our 1st system.

Then we switched servers and got a bigger wave of applicants then we had ever even considered we might one day have to deal with at any single time.

It reminded me of our old school original raids... the ones where all I would hear over vent was shit like:
"Okay, I pulled one."
followed by someone else saying...
"Woops, I think I pulled one same time you did.
Wait a sec.... nope
make that two..."

and then a third person would chime in with something like...
"HaHa, I hope you guys are kiddin' about having already pulled, cause I got split off from the group for a bit...
Don't worry 'cause I found ya now,
but I kinda picked up a few friends along the way that look like they are wanting to join our little shin-dig.
So they're right behind me....
and they're coming in fast."

Except now it was real people we were talking about instead of just mobs.

We weren't sure about what was gonna be the best way to handle all these applicants.
None of us was sure of what to expect from them.
We had no sure idea of what they might be expecting from us.
It sure seemed like everyone involved wanted and was trying to make it work.

But where I think we screwed up (and I know that I was to blame for a big part of this) is that we kept treating the applicants the same way we had always treated the applicants we had gotten in the past.... like they were not yet a part of the Team.
That meant that we kept using the 2nd System.
(Believing it the most fair thing we could do for all these new people that were now helping us to be able to raid in the same way we would have for the pugs on our old server.)

Problem starts growing worse because any version of our 2nd loot system (as we all know) is gonna be screwin' somebody over,
so when like 40% - 50% of our raid (as opposed to the old 10% - 20%) is now the people that the second system is supposed to be making it fair for,
and when that 40% - 50% is made up of pretty much the same people every week (instead of maaaaybe seeing a pug at most 2 or 3 times, the we had all grown used to it happening),
well it doesn't take long before EVERYONE is gonna feel screwed about something.

So I suggest we scrap all these crap 2nd systems that we're wasting all this time worrying over.

If it says <Team Sport> under everyone's name then we should do nothing more than expect everyone to apply Common Sense. Lets see where it goes from there.
---That would mean that "Full Members" gotta risk that an "Applicant" could choose to do something that might make no damn sense at all.
---But it means that "Applicants" gotta risk that a "Full Member" might do the same damn thing.


Quote:
"If we're absolutely clueless except for good common sense & totally unarmed except for a solid team there with us we will still prove to be unbeatable. The worst that could happen is that we find out faster than any other possible way which of those 2 things we are missing and where we are missing it."


I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on the matter that actually made it all the way to the bottom of this whole thing.
But PLEASE just come TALK to me about it....
If you know how long it probably took me to type this then you probably also know I don't wanna have to ever look at this damn post again!
LOL


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re: SUGGESTION: Off-spec KSK list?

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Way late but here goes anyways.

I'm not saying I'm against people getting OS gear. The problem however lies in the fact that when you put anything whatsoever behind a SK list, it opens a back door to manipulating the SK list.

Example: Item X drops. Item X is a clear upgrade for Player A who has been saving his spot for Item Y (BiS item for both Players A and B). Player B had received Item X in a previous raid and will therefore not be bidding on Item X. Player A wants the upgrade but still wants Item Y.

In this case the back door for Player A to just let Item X to fall to OS and keep their prime position for Item Y above Player B.

Now, here's where SK on one list only really shines. SK is designed to distribute loot in a raid where people aren't raiding for the loot. Gear is a happy consequence.

If everyone bids on every single item that is a MS upgrade, no one is robbed. The list is constantly moving and refreshing itself. When an item drops that you have won in the past drops, you get a higher spot because someone else will still take the item.

Now on the subject of "I've seen upgrades get sharded because they weren't worth my top spot!" This is the most troubling thing I've read. What I gather from this sentence is that people want to save their spot for a specific item (which is fine), but they aren't saving it for the right reasons. This sentence reeks of "I'm saving my spot because I don't trust other raid members to let me have what is a huge upgrade for me and only a minor upgrade for them."

Now what if its an equally big upgrade for someone else. The trust issue is no longer there. In this case, there's no reason to save your spot. If the item drops, it's going to be an upgrade for the raid (even if not for you). If an item drops that you could use gets sharded, it's no one's fault but yours.

On the subject of "losing my MS spot isn't worth getting OS gear", this is almost the same thing as the previous. Taking an OS piece shouldn't be viewed as a punishment to your MS. It should be viewed as taking an upgrade to your OS. If a MS piece drops that happens to be a minimal upgrade for someone else and a huge upgrade for you, then you should be talking to the other person. This is a TEAM SPORT, so the person getting the "7 extra int" upgrade should understand that the "60 extra int" upgrade helps the raid more, and lets it fall to you.

I understand that there's a lot more OS gear for a hybrid to collect than a pure, but that punishment is blizzard's design. A druid, for example, will always be punished more for switching from Resto to Balance (even moreso if they want to be an OP kitty) than a rogue switching from Combat to Assassination. No loot system can fix this.

I've got a million and one thoughts on this, and putting them in order after a dozen posts isn't easy for me. All I can say is that an OS SK list defeats the point of SK being used at all. Having the top spot should be reserved for someone who is unlucky enough to have nothing to bid on drop. One SK list is all that's needed when you talk to people who are after the same gear as you.


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re: SUGGESTION: Off-spec KSK list?

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Aaron, I respect your opinion, but it seems that you're grossly misinterpreting the intention of this proposed change.

The first quote that you bring up about side-grades not being worth the top spot is a misreading of what most of us are trying to accomplish. The Player A and Player B scenario isn't possible with what we're proposing, which we've tried to re-iterate several times. If it's going to be used for someone's main-spec, it cannot possibly be "sent to off-spec". We just won't let it happen.

However, let's say that Jenn is somewhat gearing up her off-spec tank set. I think she's used it 2-3 times total in our time raiding with her. If all the tanks have a piece of gear, and she can use it, but she's top of the list and only needs the INT cloak to drop (and everyone else needs it), it's not worth her dropping her spot for that piece of tanking gear that she rarely uses. Your argument would be that the piece should then be DE'd because she didn't want to sacrifice the spot. My counter-argument would be that it's a waste of gear to DE it if we ever need her to tank, possibly slowing our progression and our gearing process.

There are several guilds all over the place that use modified versions of every loot system out there. Why? They tailor it to their needs. This is simply all I'm suggesting. If we're being so strict with our loot system that usable off-spec gear is being sharded, then we need to adjust it, in my opinion. Again, I'm not proposing any changes to how main-spec (or hybrid) works.

Besides, I know full well that people have been handed gear that they can use when it was supposed to be sharded as off-spec gear, namely tank gear. We're already "exploiting it", so let's just get it over with and make off-spec gear easier to obtain for those that have a blatant difference in gear.

Yes, progression is first and foremost, gear is second. However, if we're throwing away off-spec upgrades, like tanking gear, we're lowering our potential.


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